Montanes

Posted by F.F. on Saturday 18th of January 2025 20:52

I already made several comments on the following claim on wikipedia:
«she was much faster than other ships of the same era, reaching 14 (rather than the average 10) knots downwind and 10 (rather than 8) knots upwind.
[…]
In 1795 she fought a French force of 8 ships of the line (including one three-decker) and 2 frigates single-handed in the bay of San Feliu de Guíxols - thanks to her superior speed, the Montañés managed to get within range of a coastal artillery battery, forcing the French to break off the chase.»

In fact the average then was over 11 knots on a broad reach (currently from one to three points from running downwind). As soon as 1771 it was noted to be 11 knots by the Spanish mathematician and engineer Juan Jorge (Examen maritimo); it was even a bit more for a British ship of 74 of the time. Slowliness of most of Spanish ships was noted either by British captains and by French ones. The French Navy later purchased a few Spanish ships of 74 of the San Ildefonso class, and under Villeneuve in 1805 they burned all of them except l'Intrépide, formerly el Intrepido (still complaining about her, nevertheless), for they were too slow and leewardly sailers. El Montañés had been tested against el Monarca (San Ildefonso class) and the difference in swiftness, if favouring el Montañés, was regarded as neither decisive nor general (el Monarca was better in following winds), so el Montañés could not possibly have exceed 11 or 11½ knots at her best point of sailing, say 12, very far from the claimed 14 knots of wikipedia.

Spanish sources didn't claim el Montañés could escape the French fleet in March 1795: in fact, they say that el Montañés was pursued during more than a whole night without being able to escape, and was to find protection from coastal batteries. It is to be noted that French ships had large draughts of water and couldn't sail as near from the Spanish coast than local ships did, Spanish coasts which waters they furthermore did not know well, as Spanish pilots did.

Furthermore, as I explained before, French sources show that the French squadron had not eight ships of the line, including one three-decker, and two frigates, despite what the Spanish report said, but was of six ships of the line, all of them two-deckers of 74, and two frigates (both had 12 pounders; French frigates then mounting either 12 or 18 pounders). French sources remind that these ships came from Brest, in Brittany; there, a civil war was then at its highest. Brittany was a major land for French sailor recruiting, thus recruiting experienced sailors became even more difficult in the French Navy, where thousands had already been captured (heavy losses, as whole France then never had even 60,000 professional sailors). No wood was to be found in that port, the largest French one with Toulon, and some ships from Brest still sailed with jury masts during the battle of Groix, as late as June 1795, having been only partially repaired after the «Croisière du Grand Hiver». Some had not been fully repaired even from the «combat de Prairial», i. e. the «Glorious First of June»… of June 1794!

So no «superior speed» was needed to keep at more or less a same range, during a day-and-night pursue near ill-known coasts which waters potentially lacked deepness, the French poorly manned ships, ill-repaired, lacking experienced officers.

It is possible to find online the Spanish report. Here is a translation of it made by Google Translate :
«Yesterday morning with the ship of my command five leagues southwest of Cape San Sebastian, with a wind [from] the north, [cruising] by order of the Commander General of the Mediterranean squadron, 10 large ships were discovered to leeward, at a long distance; conjecturing that they were English, I arrived upon them, in order to ascertain the results of the combat they had had with the squadron of Toulon on the coasts of Italy, persuaded that such news could be of importance to the Commanding General; having made the signals of reconnaissance, I thought they had reciprocated, and approaching a league away, with the due precautions to keep to windward, and counting on the outstanding gait of this vessel, I repeated the signals, which, not satisfactory, I fully recognized was an enemy squadron of eight ships of the line, one of them with three decks, and two frigates, which at first lowered the Spanish flag like the one carried by this ship, lowering it afterwards and affirming the republican tricolor, which then undertook the hunt with the greatest sail force, from eleven o'clock that day until nine o'clock the next, at which time I took the anchorage of San Feliu de Guixols, where I dropped anchor in sufficient time to anchor myself, in order to wait for the enemy if they attempted to attack me, as was verified for the space of two and a half hours by seven ships, passing successively in front of my side at the distance of half a cannon shot, and making constant fire on it, to which I responded with my batteries by firing 1,100 cannon shots at the said time, causing some damage to their rigging, this ship having experienced some of them of consideration, the death of the Constable and two sailors, and several wounded of the latter class and troops. The French squadron then continued to run along the coast as far as Cape Creux, losing sight in a few hours; I will set sail when the wind permits, and I will go to Minorca, as I have completed the time of my cruise. I share it with Your Excellency, etc.
—Ship Montañés, at anchor in the cove of San Feliu de Guixols, March 31, 1795.
—José Jordán.
—His Excellency. Mr. Baylio Frei.
Mr. Antonio Valdés.»

Posted by F.F. on Wednesday 22nd of March 2023 17:46

I was wrong.

Here is an excerpt from Vincent-Félix Brun's «Guerres maritimes de la France. Port de Toulon, ses armements, son administration depuis son origine jusqu'à nos jours» (tome 2, Paris, 1861, page 268):
« The fleet of Toulon was increased a few days later [after the battle of Hyères] by a division of six ships of the line and two frigates, coming from Brest, that rear-admiral Renaudin [formerly captain of the Vengeur, on the Glorious First of June] brought there on the 13ᵗʰ of Germinal (2ⁿᵈ of April 1795). It consisted of:

the ships of the line the Montagnard, 74.
the Revolution, id.
the Tyrannicide, id.
the Jemmapes, id.
the 31 of May, id.
the Aquilon, id.
and the frigates the Embuscade [Ambush],
the Félicité.

The number of sick [men] in hospitals was becoming each day more considerable.»
(« La flotte de Toulon fut accrue peu de jours après d'une division de six vaisseaux et deux frégates, venant de Brest, que le contre-amiral Renaudin y fit entrer le 13 germinal (2 avril 1795). Elle se composait :
des vaisseaux le Montagnard, de 74.
la Révolution, id.
le Tyrannicide, id.
leJemmapes, id.
le 31 Mai, id.
l'Aquilon, id.
et des frégates l'Embuscade,
la Félicité.

Le nombre des malades dans les hôpitaux devenait tous les jours plus considérable. »)

P. Levot, A. Doneaud, Les Gloires maritimes de la France, Paris, 1866, p. 423:
«Promoted to rear-admiral, the same year, he [captain Renaudin] was appointed, in 1795, commander of a division of six ships of the line organized in Brest to cruise the Mediterranean under rear-admiral Martin;»
(«Promu contre-amiral, la même année, il fut nommé, en 1795, commandant d'une division de six vaisseaux organisée à Brest pour croiser dans la Méditerranée sous les ordres du contre-amiral Martin ;»)

The Montagnard (formerly the Jupiter), the Révolution (formerly the Thésée, i. e. Theseus), the Tyrannicide, the Jemmapes (formerly the Alexandre), the 31-Mai (formerly the Pyrrhus) and the Aquilon were all 74s of the Téméraire-class, sisterships of the renowned Pompée and America, taken by the British Navy, the former, in Toulon in 1793, and the second, on the Glorious First of June. Both frigates mounted 12-pounders.

It had been a bit difficult to find information on the Montagnard (name meaning mountainer; the Mountain, in French Montagne, was the most radical republican party, linked to the sans-culotte and to the Reign of Terror). She took part to fights just before the Glorious First of June, on the 29ᵗʰ of May, 1794, in which she was much damaged, but on the 31ˢᵗ dropped out of the French fleet because of fog, and sailed back to Brest (Louis-Édouard Chevalier, Histoire de la marine française sous la Première République, Paris, 1886, pages 135 to 137).

After a failed attempt, Renaudin had finally left Brest on the 22ⁿᵈ of February, 1795; for want of wood, repairing his ships had been a challenge, and even finding food enough proved difficult, in a country suffering from either civil and foreign war (Louis-Édouard Chevalier, same book, pages 164 to 166).

So the Montañés, on the 30ᵗʰ of March, 1795, didn't face eight ships of the line, including a three-decker, and two frigates, but six ships of the line, all being 74s of the Téméraire-class, and two frigates.

On Threedecks:
«3.3.1795
By Royal Ordenance, future 74's must be built following Montannes' plans.»
That ordenanza unruled a former decision, taken by a concil in Cádiz (December 12ᵗʰ, 1794), which, considering how unconclusive trials between the Monarca and the Montañés had been, didn't chose between the two systems.

Posted by F.F. on Tuesday 14th of March 2023 18:30

I found French references on the French Navy's actions in the Mediterranean Sea in 1795.

From its arrival in Toulon on the 24ᵗʰ of March (after having been defeated on the 14ᵗʰ in the battle of Genoa) to its weighing in June, the 9ᵗʰ, which was to end by the battle of the Hyères Islands, no French line of battle ship left that port (see, on that and what follows, Jacques Onésime Troude, Bataille navales de la France, Paris, 1867, volume ⅱ, pages 431 and 432; avalaible on Internet Archive for online reading and downloading). Even then, lack of everything was such that one of the French ships had to go back because of her dangerously poor condition, and each ship missed some 100 men. And leaving Toulon had been made difficult because the Republican party feared the French sailors would give, once in sea, their ships to the English.

So the fight of the Montañés, off the Mediterranean coast of Spain, on the 30ᵗʰ of March, against 8 French ships of the line, including one three-decker, is likely a myth.

I wrote that in 1794 the Montañés had been tested against the San Ildefonso, whereas, as stated on threedecks, she had been tested against the Monarca, sistership of the San Ildefonso; and that the Montañés had then been found slightly a better sailer, on the whole, with the exception of their best point of sailing, whereas it was with following winds that the Monarca performed slightly better. Yet it's enough to wonder how it would be possible for the Montañés to reach 14 knots at her best point of sailng and 10 close hauled, being just slightly faster in tests than a ship regarded as slow when compared to ships reaching 11 knots at their best point of sailing or 9 close hauled. And the uncommon ratio between 14 at her best point and 10 close hauled (for such a slim ship, furthermore) is enough to wonder where such statements first came from.

I think none of the very few ships built from Retamosa's system was ever in the Royal Navy; but many built from Romero de Landa's system were taken and used, including the San Ildefonso, sistership of the Monarca which the Montañés hardly bested, and none of them was then regarded as a good sailer. As far as I konw, the Spanish ships of the line and frigates praised in the XVIIIᵗʰ century by British sailors had been built either from Gaztañeta's or from Gautier's systems.

Posted by F.F. on Monday 13th of March 2023 18:17

Wikipedia has an article on the Montañés, in which it is stated that «she was much faster than other ships of the same era, reaching 14 (rather than the average 10) knots downwind and 10 (rather than 8) knots upwind.

In 1795 she fought a French force of 8 ships of the line (including one three-decker) and 2 frigates single-handed in the bay of San Feliu de Guíxols - thanks to her superior speed, the Montañés managed to get within range of a coastal artillery battery, forcing the French to break off the chase.»

No rexerence is given for those statements.

That article, already including those statements, was first published in March 2015, on the 5, and since then was edited fourteen times, the three last time by a «Rif Winfield» — seemingly the writer known for his works on the age of sail.

Neither in Spanish websites nor in French references either published or online could I find something else on a fight in 1795 against a French three-decker. The only one then remaining to France in Mediterranea was the Sans-Culot(t)e, renamed that year the Orient, launched in 1790 under the name le Dauphin-Royal («the Royal Delphin»: the Deplhin was the French counterpart of the Prince of Wales, i. e. the first son of the king), which, being the French flagship, was to explode in 1798 during the battle of the Nile, and was then, and for dozens of years more, with her sisterships, the largest and more heavily gunned ship existing.

Commonly ships of the line reached 10 or 11 knots at their best point of saing, and 8 or 9 knots close-hauled. Good frigates reached 13 (uncommonly 14) knots before the wind, 10 knots (uncommoly 11) close-hauled. The Montañés was tested in 1794, against the San Ildefonso, and proved herself a slighltly faster sailer, whereas slightly outsailed at their best point of sailing (which was, for most of ships, two or three points from the wind). As the San Ildefonso and her sisterships were regarded as poor sailers in the Royal Navy, and as the French ships on the whole were better sailers than even the British ones, and furthermore as the San Ildefonso and her sisterships were in the French Navy despised as very slow sailers, it appears that the statements I quoted are either a mistake or misleadingly reported.

Does anyone know more thereupon?

The Montañés was not as broad as the San Ildefonso, but had more depth in her hold, and was as long as her. The San Ildefonso, a archetypal Spanish 70~74-gun ship of the line, had a displacement of some 2700ｔ (SI) and a burthen of 1752 tons (measured as in the Royal Navy; in Europe, burthen was rarely used except for merchant ships). The Montañés had a displacement of some 2530ｔ (SI), and her burthen wolud have been calculated, if measured in Great Britain, as some 1650 or 1700 tons. British 74s at the outbreak of the French Revolutionary/Napoleonic wars usually were somewhat smaller: average was around 1650 tons burthen, more than 1700 being uncommon, the Brunswick and a few ships, as the Triumph which was made from a French 74, ranging around 1800. The French 74s were, on the opposite, larger than both their British and their Spanish counterparts: the oldest ones had a burthen (as measured in the Royal Navy) of some 1685 tons; 1800 tons or so were more common; and the new type, the Téméraire class of Jacques-Noël Sané, the only one still built and accounting for one half of the French third rates in 1793, on the average reached nearly 1890 tons, and had a displacement of 2900 or 3000ｔ, figures which were soon to become a kind of world-wide standard in that rate.